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Douglas Murray and the end of ‘historians’
‘It’s pretty hard to listen to somebody who says, “I don’t know what I’m talking about but now I’m gonna talk”’
Who gets to call themselves an expert? That’s the big question featured in a bruising episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, in which Rogan hosts The Spectator’s Douglas Murray and the libertarian comedian Dave Smith. Murray accuses Rogan of opening “the door to quite a lot of people who’ve now got a big platform, who’ve been throwing out counter-historical stuff of a very dangerous kind.”
The nearly three-hour-long program begins with Murray asking if Rogan feels that his show has been “tilted one way” in its guest selection:
Dave Smith v. Douglas Murray is what happens when someone who says stuff goes up against someone who knows stuff.@DouglasKMurray is a powerhouse.
Thank God he’s on our side. pic.twitter.com/6B1O7IA00b— Ian Haworth (@ighaworth) April 10, 2025
Murray: If you’re gonna interview historians of the conflict, or historians in general, why would you get somebody like Ian Carroll?
Rogan: Yeah but Ian Carroll, I didn’t bring him on for that purpose. I brought him on because I wanted to find out, like, “how does one get involved in the whole conspiracy theory business?” Because his whole thing is just conspiracies.
Murray: There’s been a tilt in the conversation, in both conversations in the last couple of years. And it’s largely to do with people who have appointed themselves experts, who are not experts.
Rogan: Oh you mean like Ian? I don’t think he appoints himself an expert in anything.
Murray: Who’s that other dude who thinks he’s an expert on Churchill?
Rogan: Oh, Darryl? Cooper? He does not think he’s an expert.
Smith: In fact, I think it’s everybody else is always calling him an expert and he’s like, “I’m just a history–
Rogan: Have you ever absorbed any of his material? Have you ever consumed any of his podcasts or anything like that?
Murray: I’ve tried.
Rogan: Yeah?
Murray: It’s pretty hard to listen to somebody who says, “I don’t know what I’m talking about but now I’m gonna talk.” Or, “I don’t know about this.” Or, “I’m not capable of debating this historian but I’m gonna just tell you what I think.”
Smith: Yeah but I mean that’s not exactly what Darryl was saying… what Darryl is saying is, he doesn’t like to do debates, he likes to do long-format stuff where he can really explain his position.
Murray: But if you throw a lot of shit out there, there’s some point at which “I’m just raising questions” is not a valid thing. You’re not raising questions. You’re not asking questions. You’re telling people something.
Rogan: You think Darryl’s doing that?
Murray: I think there’s a whole bunch of people doing that. I think… Dave is doing that. Very obviously. Dave’s a comedian… but he’s now… mainly… talking about Israel.
Murray majored in English at Oxford. By age 19, he had written a historical biography of Bosie Douglas, the first of several books. Murray particularly takes issue with the elevation of “contrarian” figures who are granted equal, or greater, status and audience than academics who’ve dedicated a lives to developing expertise in a given field:
Murray: These guys are not historians, they’re not knowledgeable.
Rogan: No one’s calling Ian Carroll a historian.
Murray: No but then why listen to their views on Churchill?
Smith: Darryl is incredibly knowledgeable.
Murray: He’s not, he’s not… several reasons. One is when he was offered to debate the current greatest living biographer of Churchill, he said, “I can’t, because he knows much more than me, and I admire his work and I have learned from it but I can’t possibly debate him.” That’s Andrew Roberts.
Rogan: But you don’t have to be able to debate people to have opinions on things.
Murray: You don’t have to debate people.
Rogan: If it’s not your thing.
Murray: But if you for instance… but if you say, “I’ve decided that Churchill is the bad guy in World War Two–”
Rogan: That’s not what he said, that’s not what he said–
Murray: Neither Carroll nor Cooper have said that?
As Murray puts it: “I watched Pat Buchanan debate against Churchill historians and he was absolutely leveled, because he doesn’t know what he’s talking about… If you only get the contrary view, which is, ‘isn’t it fun if we all pretend that Churchill was the bad guy of the 20th century?,’ at some point you’re gonna lead people down a path where they think that’s the view. And that’s horseshit, of the most profound kind.”
Murray also comes after Smith, who self-identifies as both a libertarian commentator and a comedian – monikers that other libertarians and other comedians would contest. Murray is aghast when he learns that Smith has never been to the Middle East. “You can’t time-travel but you can travel,” he says, after Smith points out that he’s not “been to Nazi Germany” either. “If you’re going to spend a year and a half talking about a place, you should at least do the courtesy of visiting it… I think it’s a good idea to see stuff, particularly if you spend a career talking about something. If you’re insistent that you’re an expert of some kind, or not claiming you’re an expert but still talking about it, about the provisions going into Gaza or not, if you’ve never seen any of this going on.”
💥MUST WATCH: Douglas Murray SHUTS DOWN Dave Smith, Exposes Him As A Fraud
— Shelley G (@ShelleyGldschmt) April 10, 2025
Dave Smith has spent the past year and a half obsessively vilifying Israel, yet has never even been there or observed the region in person. pic.twitter.com/b44TVM7u4D
“You can talk about what you want, as you’re proving,” Murray says to Smith. “But that is a different matter from spending an awfully long amount of time talking about an issue in a region you haven’t even had the courtesy to visit whilst developing all of these views about it.”
The whole episode is worth a watch – you can do so here. Ostensibly Murray was on to promote his new book On Democracies and Death Cults. Cockburn is left curious about whether Murray’s appearance could cause trouble for Brand Rogan. Rogan has built the world’s most successful podcast thanks to his “normal guy asking about things” approach. Yet his less than even-keeled approach to Murray, and this issue, has Cockburn “just asking questions” about how long Rogan can keep up that shtick.
Murray has appeared on Rogan before – though this is his first appearance that wasn’t solo. Cockburn wonders why Rogan opted to bring Smith in for a Murray mauling – was the possibility of having an avowed champion of Israel on alone so beyond the pale?
On our radar
ROUGH TRADE “We are doing really well on our TARIFF POLICY,” President Trump posted on Truth Social this morning. “Very exciting for America, and the World!!!”
END OF THE SPECTRUM? Health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. says his department has launched “a massive testing and research effort” in an attempt to address the childhood “autism epidemic.”
DRESSED TO THRILL The Daily Mail branded Congresswoman Lauren Boebert’s thigh-length dress for the NRCC gala “inappropriate.” The dress… looks pretty normal?
Modelo citizen
America’s top beer brand hit by Trump policies, says CEO
Modelo overtook Bud Light as America’s bestselling beer two years ago – thanks to both the increasing size of the Hispanic American demographic and the “anti-woke” backlash to Bud Light’s partnership with trans influencer Dylan Mulvaney. Now the CEO of the company that produces Modelo has spoken out about how President Trump’s approach to Mexico, and deportation, is hitting the beer in the pocket book.
“Things like social gatherings, an area where the Hispanic consumer often consumes beer, are declining today,” Constellation Brands CEO Bill Newlands told analysts in a corporate conference call Thursday. He also said Hispanics were spending less on restaurants, clothing and travel.
His words come on the tail of looming 200 percent tariffs on alcohol from the European Union – and the domestic beer industry would also be impacted by the 25 percent aluminum tariffs that have been in place since mid-March. Cockburn wants to celebrate the so-called “new American golden age” as much as every other American – but how can he do so if it’s $10 a beer and $100 a Scotch?
The Obamas are doing fine, seriously
Michelle swats away divorce rumors
Is the Obama marriage on thin ice? Is Barack really into Jennifer Aniston? Forget about all of that, Michelle Obama said this week.
With her husband out of the spotlight, the former first lady is able to run her own schedule because she is a “grown woman,” she told Sophia Bush on the Work in Progress podcast.
“That’s the thing that we as women, I think we struggle with like disappointing people,” she explained. “I mean, so much so that this year people couldn’t even fathom that I was making a choice for myself that they had to assume that my husband and I are divorcing. This couldn’t be a grown woman just making a set of decisions for herself, right? But that’s what society does to us.”
While Michelle did skip out on big events with her boo, she did rally for Kamala Harris at the Democrats’ convention this summer, and much of the so-called evidence of her marital problems is circumstantial at best. Does Barack posting a fairly horrible picture of her and not putting an “I” in front of “love you” really mean much? Or is this just a normal marriage?
As for the rumors – and to be clear, that is all they are – about Barack and Jennifer? Aniston quashed them a few months ago, insisting, “I have met him once. I know Michelle more than him.”
Sign up here to get Cockburn’s Diary in your inbox on Tuesdays and Fridays – before anyone else…
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